Legislature(1999 - 2000)
03/17/2000 09:06 AM Senate FIN
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
MINUTES
SENATE FINANCE COMMITTEE
March 17, 2000
9:06 AM
TAPES
SFC-00 # 52, Side A & B
CALL TO ORDER
Co-Chair John Torgerson convened the meeting at
approximately 9:06 AM
PRESENT Co-Chair John Torgerson, Co-Chair Sean Parnell,
Senator Al Adams, Senator Dave Donley, Senator Lyda Green,
Senator Loren Leman, Senator Randy Phillips, Senator Gary
Wilken
Also Attending: KEVIN BROOKS, Director, Division of
Administrative Services, Department of Fish & Game; VICTOR
GUNN, Staff, Senator P. Kelly; GERON BRUCE, Legislative
Liaison, Office of the Commissioner, Department of Fish &
Game; JOEL BENNETT, Defenders of Wildlife;
Attending via Teleconference: From Anchorage: KEVIN SAXBY,
Assistant Attorney General, Natural Resources Section,
Department of Law; From Matsu: ROD ARNO, Registered Guide.
SUMMARY INFORMATION
SB 281-OPERATING BUDGET MISSIONS AND MEASURES
Kevin Brooks from the Department of Fish & Game testified.
The amended bill was passed out of committee.
SB 267-MANAGEMENT OF GAME
Victor Gunn from the sponsor's office testified, along with
the Department of Fish & Game, Department of Law, Defenders
of Wildlife and the general public. The bill was held in
committee.
SENATE BILL NO. 281
"An Act relating to missions and measures to be
applied to certain expenditures by the executive
branch of state government and the University of
Alaska from the state operating budget for the fiscal
year ending June 30, 2001; and providing for an
effective date."
Amendment #1: This amendment deletes old and inserts new
language as follows:
DELETE (b)(1) - (b)(2)
Insert:
(b)(1) Amount of revenue from land and cash.
(b)(2) Percent of disbursement of Trust
income for mental health programs
Senator Leman made a motion to adopt Amendment #1.
Senator Leman explained that the Mental Health Trust
Authority is not a direct provider, which the current
legislation would seem to imply. He noted that this
amendment would rectify this misrepresentation.
Co-Chair Torgerson hearing no objection ADOPTED Amendment
Amendment #2: This amendment would delete old and insert
new language as follows:
Page 6, line 15:
Delete "of public officials"
Insert "to the public of candidates and public
officials in accordance with the Alaska Statutes"
Page 6, line 16:
Delete "division"
Insert "commission"
Page 6, line 19, following "by":
Insert "candidates and"
Page 6, line 20, following "the":
Insert "average"
Co-Chair Parnell made a motion to adopt Amendment #2.
Co-Chair Parnell explained that this amendment addresses
the missions and measures for Alaska Public Offices
Commission (APOC) to ensure the accountability of public
officials and candidates. He added that there was no
opposition to this amendment, but told Senator Adams that
he did not believe that APOC had necessarily reviewed it.
Senator Wilken noted that the Department of Administration
had signed off of both amendment #2 and #3.
Co-Chair Torgerson hearing no objection ADOPTED Amendment
Amendment #3: deletes old and inserts new language as
follows:
Page 6, line 25:
Delete "appeals"
Insert "permits"
Co-Chair Parnell made a motion to adopt Amendment #3.
Co-Chair Parnell explained that Amendment #3 clarifies that
the Conservation Commission as referenced processes permits
rather than hearing appeals.
Co-Chair Torgerson hearing no objection ADOPTED Amendment #
3.
Amendment #4: This amendment deletes old and inserts new
language as follows:
Page 8, line 29, following "increase":
Delete "the"
Page 8, line 30, following "international":
Insert "trade and"
Page 9, lines 30 - 31:
Delete all material and insert:
"(4) the increase in student achievement and
interest in math and science as a result of ASTF teacher
grants."
Page 10, lines 14 - 18:
Delete all material and insert:
"(1) the number of unscheduled outages of
hydroelectric projects owned by the authority;
(2) the number of four-dam pool project
repairs and upgrades completed on time and within budget;
(3) the amount of revenue created by
projects owned by the authority."
Senator Green made a motion to adopt Amendment #4.
Senator Green explained that the department requested these
changes. She added that these changes helped to better
define what the department's roles are, including very
technical changes for grammatical purposes.
Co-Chair Torgerson hearing no objection ADOPTED Amendment
Amendment #5: This amendment deletes old and inserts new
language as follows:
Page 43, line 13, following "develop":
Insert ", operate, maintain,"
Co-Chair Parnell made a motion to adopt Amendment #5.
Co-Chair Torgerson explained that the department brought
this amendment.
Co-Chair Torgerson hearing no objection ADOPTED Amendment
Amendment #6: Co-Chair Torgerson noted that this amendment
was WITHDRAWN.
Amendment #7: This amendment deletes old and inserts new
language as follows:
Page 2, line 9
Delete "track"
Insert "reach"
Co-Chair Parnell made a motion to adopt Amendment #7.
Co-Chair Parnell explained that this amendment was provided
by the Department of Administration.
Co-Chair Torgerson hearing no objection ADOPTED Amendment
Amendment #8: This amendment deletes old and inserts new
language as follows:
Page 37, lines 23 - 26:
Delete all material.
Renumber the following bill sections accordingly.
Page 47, following line 4:
Insert a new bill section to read:
"* Sec. 149. DOT/PF - Highway Safety Planning
Agency. (a) The mission of the Highway Safety Planning
Agency is to administer Grant programs that promote safer
highways.
(b) The legislature intends to measure the
success of the agency in achieving its mission by
considering the number of highway deaths per year."
Renumber the following bill sections accordingly.
Co-Chair Parnell made a motion to adopt Amendment #8.
Co-Chair Parnell explained that it was important to measure
how state services or facilities are maintained for the
public. He noted that one measure for the related agency
to assess their success is to tabulate how many individuals
are killed on highways and he added that ultimately, this
number of deaths should be reduced over time.
Co-Chair Torgerson hearing no objection ADOPTED Amendment
Amendment #9: This amendment deletes old and adds new
language as follows:
Page 1, line 7:
Delete "secs. 1 - 153"
Insert "secs. 1 - 154"
Page 23, following line 12:
Insert a new bill section to read:
"*Sec. 73. DF&G - Division of Subsistence. (a)
The mission of the Division of Subsistence is to
(1) gather, quantify, evaluate, and report data
about uses, users, and methods of
subsistence hunting and fishing; and
(2) make recommendations on the impacts of
federal and state laws and regulations on
subsistence uses and users.
(b) The legislature intends to measure the success of
the division in achieving its mission by considering the
percentage of
(1) Alaska communities in each region for which
fisheries harvest data are collected and
reported;
(2) Alaska communities in each region for which
wildlife harvest data are collected and
reported;
(3) Subsistence proposals at meetings of the
Board of Fisheries and the Board of Game for
which subsistence data are assessed and
recommendations are made;
(4) Proposed statutory and regulatory changes by
federal and other state entities for which
subsistence data are assessed and
recommendations are made."
Renumber the following bill sections accordingly.
Page 29, line 19:
Delete "secs. 94 - 97"
Insert "secs. 95 - 98"
Co-Chair Parnell made a motion to adopt Amendment #9.
KEVIN BROOKS, Director, Division of Administrative
Services, Department of Fish & Game explained that the
department had proposed this amendment.
Co-Chair Torgerson hearing no objection ADOPTED Amendment
Amendment #10: This amendment deletes old and adds new
language as follows:
Page 48 line 6 - 10 delete all material and insert:
(2) the number of students enrolled in and
graduated in teacher education, health careers, process
technology, transportation and logistics, information
technology and other high demand job areas;
Renumber sections accordingly
Co-Chair Parnell made a motion to adopt Amendment #10.
Co-Chair Parnell explained that this section as currently
written considers the new or expanded degree programs as
noted. He felt it was appropriate to measure how many
expanded degree programs are created as versus trying to
measure the quality of programs, which already exist, by
determining the number of enrollees and graduates.
Senator Green suggested a language change.
Co-Chair Parnell made a motion to amend Amendment #10 to
delete "number of students enrolled in and graduate in
teacher," and insert "percentage of students graduating
with degrees in teacher." A general discussion regarding
the ways to clarify this assessment language followed.
Without objection, Amendment #10 was AMENDED.
Co-Chair Parnell made a motion to move SB 281, work order
number 1-LS1392\D from Committee.
Co-Chair Torgerson hearing no objection moved SB 218 FROM
THE COMMITTEE.
SENATE BILL NO. 267
"An Act relating to management of game."
VICTOR GUNN, Staff for Senator P. Kelly read the sponsor
statement into the record. He declared that Senate Bill
267 directs the Commissioner of Fish and Game to "accord a
high priority to the implementation of programs and
regulations adopted by the Board of Game under AS
16.05.255(e) - (I)" which provides for intensive management
programs to restore the abundance or productivity of
identified big game prey populations as necessary to
achieve human consumptive use goals of the board. He noted
that this bill directs the commissioner to allocate fiscal
and staff resources to implement intensive game management
programs and regulations in a timely and effective manner.
Mr. Gunn stated that Senate Bill 267 amends AS 16.05.2555
by adding a new subsection, which provides for the taking
of wolves on the same day airborne. He added that the
board or department may require no additional permit. He
specified that the prohibition of same-day airborne hunting
(AS 16.050783) would not apply when the Board of Game has
adopted regulations to provide for intensive management of
an identified big game prey population.
Mr. Gunn continued that this bill also authorizes an agent
of the Department of Fish and Game, as part of a game
management program, to shoot or assist in shooting
predators on the same day airborne. He recounted that this
legislation was a result of a meeting in McGrath over the
problems of predators in the area, as well as those
individuals around the state who are concerned about prey
populations. He referred to a previous fiscal note that
had been reduced to zero.
Senator Phillips asked if the Board of Game had requested
this legislation.
Mr. Gunn responded no, but noted that the Board was
consulted during the language drafting.
Senator Phillips asked why the previous fiscal note of
$600,000 was reduced to zero.
Mr. Gunn responded that this change took place during the
Committee Substitute adoption in the Senate Resources
Committee.
Senator Phillips stated that he had problems with this
bill. He noted that his constituents feel as though the
Board of Game is overreacting to the situation in McGrath.
Co-Chair Torgerson referred to line six and seven, on page
one and read the language as follows: "shall allocate
fiscal and staff resources for the department as necessary"
and asked if this language gave to the Board of Game the
power of appropriation over the legislature in order to
implement this program.
Mr. Gunn responded that this language was drafted in order
to give priority to this problem.
Co-Chair Torgerson referred to line 14, page one and read
the following language as follows: "for purposes of
protecting wildlife." He commented that this was very
open-ended language.
Senator Adams stated that he supported this legislation,
but he had a question about language in Section 3, line 6 -
8 on page two, with the use of the word "agent."
Mr. Gunn responded that this could be an individual
contracted by or employed in a temporary capacity. He
added that this language would be helpful to the department
to hire airplane pilots and such.
GERON BRUCE, Legislative Liaison, Office of the
Commissioner, Department of Fish & Game stated that the
subject of SB 267 is to control predators, particularly
wolves, through same day airborne shooting and the use of
agents in the department to conduct aerial control
programs. He commented that historically, this is a
controversial subject, which produces strong and negative
reactions from many individuals. He continued that the
Department has grave reservations about being legislated to
do something that such a large segment of the public so
clearly opposes. He referred to Section 1 of this
legislation and added that it requires the department to
implement predator control programs without violating the
Separation of Powers Doctrine. He noted that the
department is still unsure whether this Section is
successful in doing so.
Mr. Bruce referred to Section 2, which addresses same day
landing and shooting of wolves in the area of the state
subject to intensive management programs. He noted that
this comprised about two-thirds of the state. He added
that these same day shootings are subject to abuse and it
is difficult to enforce, especially keeping hunting within
designated areas. He described Section 3, which authorizes
the use of agents under a Fish & Game predator control
program. He added that the department does not support
this Section since aerial shooting is already controversial
and since the use of Fish & Game employees ensures more
accountability to the public.
Mr. Bruce commented that the department respectfully
offers, that legislative policies that are objectionable to
a large segment of the public, are not the way to resolve
the impasse over the management of wolves and the control
of predation. He declared that the department believes
that only through the development of a compromise,
resulting in a balanced wildlife management program, can
the gridlock over predator management be resolved.
Co-Chair Torgerson asked if the McGrath residents feel as
though the department has come up with a compromise to deal
with this wolf program.
Mr. Bruce responded negatively.
Senator Phillips assumed that the department does not
support this bill in its present form.
Mr. Bruce responded that this was a correct assumption.
Senator Phillips asked if the Board of Game had requested
this legislation.
Mr. Bruce responded that he was not aware of the Board
requesting this legislation.
Senator Phillips asked for clarification on the total moose
and bear population in the McGrath area, along with allowed
takings of the same. He asked if the hunting of bear with
the aid of snow machines was allowed.
Mr. Bruce responded that this latter assessment would be
illegal.
Senator Phillips understood that the Board of Game
recommended this predatory control be conducted by Fish &
Game staff or locals. He wondered if this was the
recommendation of the Board of Game.
Mr. Bruce responded that at the last board meeting, a
number of regulations were considered to try to increase
the harvest of wolves and bears. He added that the board
has authorized a predator control program in this area that
has not been implemented. He reported that the department
did not plan to implement a plan themselves at this time.
Senator Adams referred to Section 2 and clarified that Mr.
Bruce thought this section was too broad, by encompassing
too much of Alaska.
Mr. Bruce responded that this was correct. He noted that
while two-thirds of the state is subject to intensive
management plans, a much smaller area of the state has
experienced predator control programs adopted by the Board
of Game. He continued that this was much broader in places
where the board has recognized that predator control is
necessary.
Senator Adams asked if the department has looked at using
the McGrath area as a control area under game management or
as a longitude/latitude specific designation. He added
that this would avoid the legislation being too overly
broad.
Mr. Bruce responded that the department has considered
these options. He added that if the legislation is
restricted to these areas, where the board has authorized
the predator control program, this would narrow the focus
of the bill to those areas where the Board of Game has
determined that there is an actual problem with wolf
predation affecting prey populations. He continued that
this effort would help focus this issue more narrowly.
KEVIN SAXBY, Assistant Attorney General, Natural Resources
Section, Department of Law testified via teleconference
from Anchorage regarding the wording problem of Section 2.
He noted that neither the public nor the enforcement
officers will be able to tell which areas are determined
exceptions to the same day airborne policy. He stated that
this was partly because the board has already adopted a
number of regulations under the intensive management law,
which are intended to provide for recovery of various game
populations. He then gave some examples of these, such as
liberalizing bag limits in season on wolves and bears. He
pointed out that in no place within regulations does it
identify that these regulations were adopted for intensive
management purposes or is an area identified as subjected
to these types of intensive management regulations, and in
essence, the public will not be able to tell. He added
that two-thirds of the state has been designated as
important for high levels of consumptive use, but it does
not follow from this, that intensive management regulations
have been adopted in this area as well.
Mr. Saxby pointed that intensive management, even when
predation has deemed to be the problem, may not be focused
on wolves, but instead, on bears. He noted that as a
result, the focus could potentially be on the wrong
predator with this legislation, under the current language.
He continued that there are other areas in the state where
predation is not the problem, but rather habitat is. He
recounted, that as a result, the board might adopt
regulations intended to benefit prey populations in these
areas, but wolves and bears would not have anything to do
with it. He concluded that even in areas where the board
has identified wolves as the primary limiting factor,
sometimes the board opts to adopt a non-lethal control
program. He added this legislation could greatly interfere
with exercising such an option. Mr. Saxby clarified that
at the last Board of Game meeting, it was decided that in
[inaudible] and in two other areas of the state, wolves
could be taken from a snow machine. He noted that this had
yet to be codified, but it was a decision made by the
board.
ROD ARNO testified via teleconference from MatSu. He
stated that he has been a registered guide for 35 years.
He noted that he supports this legislation, but has some
concerns, both of which were addressed. He continued that
having this legislation apply to intensive management of an
identified big game prey population area, should be changed
specifically to only relating to a wolf predation control
implementation plan as adopted by the Board of Game. He
referred to Section 2, line 15, where it states, "the
purpose of protection," and suggested that the following
language should be added "and enhancing wildlife." He
noted that there was clearly support for the sustainable
future of Alaska's renewal resources, and quoted revenue
figures for food harvests statewide. He added that there
are financial reasons to enhance wildlife in areas without
eradicating the prey populations in these same areas. He
continued to address public perception issues.
JOEL BENNETT, Defenders of Wildlife noted other
organizations have been involved in these types of
processes and he did not expect that his organization
should be criticized for their beliefs.
Tape: SFC - 00 #52, Side B, 9:54 AM
Mr. Bennett continued that he is a 35-year resident to
Alaska and a life-long hunter. He noted that he is a
former 13-year member of the Board of Game. He spoke
strongly against CSSB 267. He stated that this legislation
radically changes the citizens vote of 1996 on Proposition
3, by reinstating a practice of land and shoot hunting of
wolves. He continued that Alaskans in the past have
identified this as a practice that is subject to abuses and
is an unfair, unpopular method of hunting. He explained
that this form of hunting is impossible to enforce and many
times other animals are taken in this same manner while in
the pursuit of wolf. He referred to remarks made by
Senator P. Kelly that seemed to reverse his position of
supporting SB 74 introduced last year, which did not
include same day landing and shooting of wolves and other
predators.
Senator Donley responded that this characterization was not
accurate. He added that Senator P. Kelly spoke to a
separate piece of legislation. He continued that this was
inappropriate to impugn the intent of legislation from last
year.
Co-Chair Parnell reiterated that this legislation
specifically says that a person may not shoot from the air.
He continued that the language Mr. Bennett used means
numerous things to the public and that the public could
construe from these remarks that this present legislation
allows shooting wolves from the air.
Senator Phillips stated that he tends to agree in principal
with what Mr. Bennett had said about this legislation, but
noted that there is still a problem with wolves in the
McGrath area. He added that he does not support this
legislation in its current form and asked for other viable
solutions to this problem. He summed up that some of his
constituents question this methodology.
Mr. Bennett stated that the situation in McGrath is very
complex, involving bears as well as wolves. He thought
that the board was considering other measures to address
bear predation. He also mentioned bounties on wolves,
which in the past was very effective. Mr. Bennett
commented that he flew for seven hours over the McGrath
area to review the habitat. He challenged anyone to
designate this area as high-density moose habitat. He
referred to McGrath's 42 percent success rate for moose
last year, which was one of the most successful in the
state. He added in response to Co-Chair Parnell and
Senator Donley's comments that he only compared the two
pieces of legislation in order to reflect their conflicting
sentiment.
Mr. Bennett remarked that he saw the State of Alaska at a
serious crossroad and noted the wide chasm between major
elements of the public, which is getting wider. He felt as
though legislation such as SB 267 would widen this chasm
and produce polarization.
Mr. Gunn noted a Dittman Poll from last year which asked
residents statewide whether they would support, when a
biological emergency exists, a same day aerial wolf control
program and 63 percent said they would support this
initiative.
Co-Chair Torgerson summarized previous areas of concern
with this bill as mentioned and requested that language in
this bill be modified accordingly. He HELD the bill in
committee.
Senator Green reiterated that it was important to stress
that this present legislation has nothing to do with anyone
shooting wolves from an airplane or helicopter. The bill
was HELD in Committee.
ADJOURNED
Senator Torgerson adjourned the meeting at 10:13 AM.
SFC-00 (14) 3/17/00
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